Curse

Bobby2 · Nov 26, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

lead>offhand>dual will never get you a kill

I've already seen a sickening amount of SP Trampling Sins...

moriz · Nov 26, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

and black mantis>jungle>trampling does not kill by itself. you have to follow it up with falling lotus>twisting for it to do anything.

martialis · Nov 26, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Your idea makes them More skillful than quite a few other classes, for less rewards >.>
With your implementation the only thing of ease for an assassin would be shadow steps >.>

Anyways I'll just repeat this >.> Lead attacks should be 1/4 cast time >.> cus Disrupting Stab is slow T_T

You should listen to this man.

Assassins are a melee class, like the dervish, and their auto-attacks do very high damage. You can't turn them into a ranger-mesmer-runner thing and expect people to use them.

You have to nerf every possible spike combo, so people can't use those. This is almost certainly impossible. As long as you can kill someone with 7 attack skills and a shadow step, people will do it.

You have to be able to pressure with something besides combos, because those won't work. And you have to be able to tank. Your new attack skills are really bad compared to warriors and dervishes.

You can't buff shadowsteps for any other class.

Shadow stepping is a really wonderful idea, especially in pve, and it's necessary for any kind of utility. So make shadowstepping disable all your combos but still allow disruption, I guess.

moriz · Nov 26, 2007, 06:27 PM // 18:27

that man is also very wrong, so i won't listen to him.

my idea will make sins very good for good players, average for average players, and downright bad for bad players. which btw, is the way things should be.

Bobby2 · Nov 26, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and black mantis>jungle>trampling does not kill by itself. you have to follow it up with falling lotus>twisting for it to do anything.

Right, cuz any self-respecting chain involves 2 duals (hence the 'necessity' of the cheat offhands, skill compression) but I was trying to point out the LOD-chain is far from dead.

craigrs84 · Nov 26, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

after thinking over this whole thread, i came to this obvious conclusion.

instagib is the assasin's niche.

if you take this away you must find another niche for it that makes it unique from all other classes otherwise there is no reason to play them.

i don't think being able to use an offhand out of order in order to put conditions on the enemy is enough. other melee classes can do the same thing only with higher armor and in a less complicated manner.

i also don't think shadowstepping alone is enough to make the assasin truly unique. other classes can do the same thing by taking an assasin secondary. and without the high damage spikes shadow stepping loses some of its attractiveness due to long recharge times.

so i think the question that we all need to ask ourselves is, if we take away istagib what will we replace it with that will make the class equally unique rather than a subpar version of the other melee classes. while the OP's ideas do promote diversity and flexiblity in play style they don't really differentiate the assasin from other melee classes. in short, the other melee classes could probably do it better.

---

one thing i've noticed lot's of people say is that they think the assasin should not be able to take a target from 100% to 0% in 5 secs. They say the assasin should play the role of a finisher, killing an already weakened target. what if we lowered the overall damage on the dagger attack chains to eliminate instagib, buff lead and offhand attacks so there is not a HUGE difference and less temptation to skip leads, and increase base dagger attack rate by a fair amount. Never understood why daggers attack at the same speed as a sword / axe anyways, they are much lighter. This would give the assasin a natural ability to shadowstep in and get their shorter chain off with less chance of being blocked, but with less overall damage so instagib is impossible. i know people will complain that daggers are already fast enough especially with IAS but there has to be some compensation for less overall damage. This could also give it a new role where it could more effectively soften targets instead of having to wait for the teammembers to lower the health of enemies. with shadowsteps it could teleport in quickly do some spike damage and teleport out again without taking much damage.

moriz · Nov 26, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

i see the assassin as a midline support character, capable of warrior-style linebacking while retaining the ability to unload a frontloaded spike. in addition, because of it's caster level energy regen, it can take over some mesmer functions like interrupts and enchant strips. if needed, it will have the mobility to gank and collapse really quickly.

in other words: a midline jack-of-all-trades class.

well, it's either that or we just nerf it into the ground, since it's been established that the instagib ability will have to go.

ensoriki · Nov 26, 2007, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Moriz, all additional classes
Assassin,dervish,paragon and ritualists are hybrids.
And thus The assassin should not just excel at damage.

The assassin should be a slightly weaker version of the warrior with utility that enables him to be stronger in certain ways.
Or a slightly stronger warrior, with only somewhat useful utility.
Instead of a insta-gib warrior >.>.

Rits = Air ele,Monk and Necro fusion.
Dervish = Monk,Warrior fusion
Paragon = Warrior,ranger,monk fusion >.>
Thus the sin is a warrior,mesmer fusion.

The goal should be to give a proper hybrid form.
Unlike the warrior whos DPS excells, the warrior's damage is weakened massively by high armor, do the the weak +damage skills, that compliment the higher base and maximum damage.

The assassin is the opposite, High + damage to compliment weaker base damage.
This gives the assassin use against armor ignoring foes in pve and against high armored pvp'rs (warriors). The assassin just needs a couple tweaks, and the utility to make him a proper hybrid IMO

horseradish · Nov 27, 2007, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

in other words: a midline jack-of-all-trades class.

Aren't Rangers the midline jack-of-all-trades class?

Since instagib has to be exterminated, what would be replaced?

Lower plus damage and lower recharges make it a warrior with -30 armor and chopsticks.

However, buffing some hexes and half-ranged spells for added utility (along with nerfing the correct ones of both) & lower plus damage and recharges of some skills could work well.

Lead attacks need a buff. I would like to see some armor penetration...or an additional % chance of critical. Something.

I hope the assassin profession will become a very mobile, single target pressure, support class with utility.

And...not broken.

MercenaryK · Nov 27, 2007, 01:45 AM // 01:45

I am positive that armor penetration will only affect your base damage, not the +damage from skills. So all ideas for skills to have armor penetration wouldn't be much on daggers. Unless you want to be hungry for all that extra damage then all sins would want sundering on their daggers to stack with the skills.

Not a good idea for armor penetration to be added to lead attacks, at least I think so.

LightningHell · Nov 27, 2007, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryK

I am positive that armor penetration will only affect your base damage, not the +damage from skills. So all ideas for skills to have armor penetration wouldn't be much on daggers. Unless you want to be hungry for all that extra damage then all sins would want sundering on their daggers to stack with the skills.

Not a good idea for armor penetration to be added to lead attacks, at least I think so.

That is true. +Damage ignores armor.

martialis · Nov 27, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

temple strike
15e 20r
Must follow a Lead Attack to count as an off-hand attack. If this attack hits, target foe is Dazed and Blinded for 1...8 seconds, and if target foe is casting a Spell, that foe is interrupted. If it does not follow a Lead Attack, it does not count as an off-hand attack. If it strikes a foe with no allies adjacent, it does no damage, and target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds

Oh, and you can rewrite the descriptions as:

temple strike
15e 20r
Off-Hand Attack. Target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds. If this follows a Lead Attack, target foe is interrupted and Dazed for 1...8 seconds.

And make it not suck.

yum · Nov 27, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

Oh, and you can rewrite the descriptions as:

temple strike
15e 20r
Off-Hand Attack. Target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds. If this follows a Lead Attack, target foe is interrupted and Dazed for 1...8 seconds.

And make it not suck.

Sadly the 15e cost and 20 recharge makes it sux balls no matter how you fix it.

ensoriki · Nov 27, 2007, 12:14 PM // 12:14

leads should have something for following duals.

I dunno heres some ideas.

Wild strike, if it hits you remove a stance. If you remove a stance you do +25 damage.If this attack follows a lead attack you do an additional +35 damage.
This attack cannot be blocked
This = to +60 and then the additional of dagger base damage.
The comment may be, This is too strong!

The damage is conditional in that you must remove a stance, who uses stances the most? warriors, warriors already don't take a lot of damage from assassin's so its not a huge deal, against monks and others with no stances your still just doing +35 damage, IF you followed a lead, otherwise your getting dagger damage =P

Jagged strike.
Normal stuff. If this hits a foe suffering from DW you do 40 damage (affected by armor). If this follows a dual attack you do an additional +20 damage.

Jagged strike, has 1 second recharge, but once you use it, its considered a lead attack thus that conditional Dual attack damage triggers once. The DW damage can be triggered as long as you have DW on your target.

GPS: If you are not enchanted this skill misses. If it hits Golden Phoenix strike does +15....36 damage (12 dagger mastery)
If this follows a lead attack you do burning for 1...4.....6 seconds (6 seconds at 15, DM)

Giving Off-hands good synergy with Lead's promotes them, Giving Leads ways of being better after a dual attack is great too.

Leaping Mantis Sting,
Exact same crap.
If this follows a dual attack you create Cripple for 10 seconds (thus now unconditional)
and an additional +10 damage.

Temple strike, 15 energy, 20 recharge =P
, if this attack hits you cause blinded a Dazed for 2....9 seconds.
If this attack hits a bleeding foe it causes weakness for 10 seconds.
If this follows a lead attack you do +20 damage.

Temple strike is now great for other uses.

With Sharpen Daggers, Leaping Mantis Sting and Temple.

You can do Blind, Daze, Bleeding AND Weakness, and the weakness coveres the daze.
Followed by your dual attack, Sharpen daggers will refresh the bleed covering weakness,blind and Daze!
And followed by a dual attack like Twisting,
And if your crazy go A/R with Apply poison (WTF) and put signet of toxic shock ..
So its like

SHarpen Daggers,Leaping,Temple.Twisting,Signet of Deadly corruption,Apply poison
Dark escape! Resurrection signet.

You only get a huge spike if you do it right, and you can put daze/blind when you need it most.
Using sharpen as a cover condition, Apply poison as well for boosts of Signet of deadly curroption and cover for your main conditions of DW,Blind and Daze.

DW+signet of DW = 230 damage, + all the damage in between and the degen.... and weakness!

Wtf was my point again?
Oh ya, if we make it so sin's get high damage for playing smart, or good pressure damage with great utility.

Boom great.

LightningHell · Nov 27, 2007, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

Oh, and you can rewrite the descriptions as:

temple strike
15e 20r
Dagger Attack. Target foe is blinded for 5...12 seconds. If this follows a Lead Attack, target foe is interrupted and Dazed for 1...8 seconds, and this is treated as an off-hand attack.

Fixed. Minor word problem, 's all.

ensoriki · Nov 27, 2007, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

Oh, and you can rewrite the descriptions as:

temple strike
Temple strike, 15 energy, 20 recharge =P
, if this attack hits you cause blinded a Dazed for 2....12 seconds.
If this attack hits a bleeding foe it causes weakness for 10 seconds.
If this follows a lead attack you do +20 damage and is counted as an off-hand attack

And make it not awesome

Super DEE DUPER FIX'd!

MercenaryK · Nov 27, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

I took holymasamune's suggestion of watching some high end GvG (and it's hard to tell who's HanD with the Japanese kanji) and searched high and low for all Assassin's used in fights. I found two that danced around their foes, using the SP build, but tweaked a slight tad. Most of the time they didn't out right kill their foes, more than likely due to enchants/monks, but very close to death.

Then I've watched them take out a few people here and there. I think the Sin is more for the 'scare' tactic. If you don't watch them carefully, they'll gank some one, but if you keep an eye on them death can be prevented. I'm beginning to think there isn't anything wrong with Sins. It's all about catching your foe off-guard or get them unexpected, thus why SP is so popular: you're in so fast and they don't have time to get out. Think about walking up to someone and unleashing a combo... the enemy monk will clearly see you, if they're paying good attention, and throw up prots.

"Sorry Mr. Sin, but the only death's you'll be causing, will be in your dreams."

And I took note of the skills they were using, besides SP. The two of them were using L-O-D I noticed for sure, but the rest of the skills seemed to vary, like two dual attacks, maybe. However this made me go and re-create the build (minus the SP) to test how fast it killed. Substituting Siphon Speed for the Hex, I brought a L-O-D-O-D and against MoD he had .... roughly 1/20th (throwing a number out there) of life left after the combo. Conditions finished him off as I stopped attacking after that. The IAS used was Frenzy/Flurry (no TS).

My point is that there are some L-O-D's out there, and no you can't just use L-O-D but there's options that can stem from there. I imagine everyone, almost, watches GvG from time to time. It seems like all the changes here are a huge wish-list that'll never happen, so why not focus on using what there is?

ensoriki · Nov 27, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Everyone and their mom knows about L-O-D-O-D MercenaryK

WTF do you think we used at the beginning of factions?
You'd see a whole bunch of that crap in arenas.
Unsuspecting,Fox fangs,Horns,Falling,Twisting
Some people replaced Unsuspecting/fox with Palm strike.

L-O-D-O-D you speak off is nothing new, and people would much rather take O-D-O-D, better bar compression, faster, pretty much just as good, since the lead barely does anything.

MercenaryK · Nov 27, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Everyone and their mom knows about L-O-D-O-D MercenaryK

WTF do you think we used at the beginning of factions?
You'd see a whole bunch of that crap in arenas.
Unsuspecting,Fox fangs,Horns,Falling,Twisting
Some people replaced Unsuspecting/fox with Palm strike.

L-O-D-O-D you speak off is nothing new, and people would much rather take O-D-O-D, better bar compression, faster, pretty much just as good, since the lead barely does anything.

I don't know, I wasn't positive knowing such a thing was necessary knowledge. Maybe I'll make a poll about that.

ensoriki · Nov 27, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Just so you know, im not trying to flame you >.>
Also its not necessary =P

L O-Dx2
Isn't used much because Its 5 skill slots, 1 slot is probably rez.
The other slots are probably just something to snare >.>